Forum:Scratch: Once Only?
The scratch is said to be very rarely employed. However, I haven't seen anything to suggest it can't be used to reset a session for a third run. Can this be confirmed or disconfirmed? To cover the basics, in the kids' post-scratch universe, there is no device for making the scratch. However, this would have been the case anyway since their void session contains no Hero (well, Noble) of Time. It's not made clear whether the trolls' post-scratch session has access to a scratch construct at all. It's hard to imagine they would not have attempted another scratch, but since they had to retreat into hiding the moment Bec Noir appeared (and thought they had won the game until that moment), it may still be reasonable to believe it existed and was accessible... TricksterWolf (talk) 00:58, February 9, 2013 (UTC) :Short answer, with our current information it can neither be disproved or confirmed, but that doesn't mean there aren't things you can think about which can help discuss the possibility of it. :I think it is important to remember how the scratch changes things, it does so but changing the arrival times of the player meteors so that the alternate generation is now the people who would play. A common theory is that the two sets of humans and the two sets of trolls were created because there was going to be or had been a scratch. If this theory was true than a session never has a scratch will only produce a single set of players. Likewise if a session were to scratch 2 times it would have to create three sets of players, otherwise after the second scratch the first set of players will be playing again. :The point is, we don't know if the reason Karkat created two sets of trolls and John created two sets of humans, was because two sets is standard, or if it was due to the scratch. If you assume two sets is standard, than a second scratch can basically be discounted. If you assume the two sets are due to the scratch, than you can a scratch can occur in a session multiple times, but that the ectobiology will create enough generations to ensure a new set for each run. :The Light6 (talk) 01:17, February 9, 2013 (UTC) :::I agree with most of that, but the dancestor meteor arrivals are not the only thing that changes following a scratch. Substantial changes existed both in the kids' and trolls' post-scratch universes which seem to pre-date any of their births. The scratch is supposed to significantly improve the odds of a winning game, hence the post-scratch trolls being a bloodthirsty (yet adorable) group of caste-bound psycho pre-trained both in hive-building and combat. It might be argued that sending a plain meteor way, way into the past could most easily bring about those sorts of striking changes. :::Personally, I would guess that two sets would be standard given the importance of dancestor relationships even within a single session, but I don't see why this precludes a second Scratch. Is it because you suspect each player would be restricted to play the game at most once? I'm guessing at your logic, so let me know if that's correct. Since there are multiple timelines, only one of which is Alpha, that seems a little arbitrary to me. Conceivably Skaia could swap portals again and make further changes to the distant past to pump the odds, which would likely switch back to the Pre-Scratch players (new and improved) for the third round, or maybe even some permutation of both. Either way, the swapping of dancestors is more of a quirk than the root of what brings about the social changes to improve player odds. :::Knowing whether Aradia's planet retained a similar-looking Cardinal Movement construct might go a long way toward answering this. We can't tell from the Kids' session, because the Post-Scratch is a void session where it is possible to have no Noble of Time (as in their case, and as such no planet there has a Scratch construct). EDIT: I just realized that a void session can't Scratch at all, even if they had a Scratch construct. The meteors won't launch. TricksterWolf (talk) 05:50, February 9, 2013 (UTC) ::::It was mentioned earlier, in canon (by Rose I believe) that the meteors still exist and don't necessarily need to be propelled by the Reckoning, per se (the trolls' meteor, which later became Caliborn and Calliope's meteor, is one such example of a meteor being propelled by another means, since Aradia and Sollux sent it on its way). ::::However, the fact of the meteors not launching is not, in itself, the reason another Scratch may not occur: the reason it might not work is that the paradox clones who went on to become the Nobles came from the previous scratched session, along with the ones who became guardians in the post-scratch session. There was no post-scratch ectobiology session creating paradox clones to be sent through the portals on meteors in the first place (at least, not after the Scratch). ::::So if Skaia were ''to somehow accumulate enough temporal energy to perform another scratch, it would have to hard reset back to a point ''just ''before the post-scratch session began in order to change the ''second ''destination of the portals (immediately after the first change initiated by the first scratch occurred, but before the post-scratch session could begin). I can't say that this would be impossible, actually, but there might be some intuitive, predictable caveat that would preclude it from happening (such as the ''second scratch construct not existing prior to the first scratch - though that doesn't seem to have prevented the first scratch from happening, so it might be some other reason if it's true at all). tachyonTrajectory (talk) 05:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC) :::::I am going to take it that your arguement is that a second scratch may be impossible due to it having to change the portals from the pre-scratch session, in which case I point towards the session glitch. The troll sessions had the glitch where the ectobiology happened post-scratch but the pre-scratch trolls were the ones who scratched and changed the portals of the A2 session, not the A1 session. :::::Though if your argument is the issue of changing the portals a second time, well in that case given that the portals can be changed at all means I doubt changing them a second time would be an issue. - The Light6 (talk) 06:03, May 19, 2013 (UTC) :::::::I wasn't really arguing for or against changing the portals a second time being possible, but attempting to point out there's no reason to argue one way or the other yet as we lack sufficient data to confirm or deny the possibility. tachyonTrajectory (talk) 17:25, May 19, 2013 (UTC) :::::tT, I'm not sure the meteors' existence is useful data here. The Reckoning never completed in either of the non-scratched, non-dead sessions, so there would naturally be meteors left, and the largest ones would be among them (e.g. the trolls' meteor-hive). When Rose says that meteors don't need to be propelled by the Reckoning, does she possibly mean instead "there are other ways to move them" or "if the Reckoning is stopped, they won't be launched"? I don't know where to find her quote (I'd guess the en-route exposition by Rose on void and dead sessions, but haven't the time to search it right now). TricksterWolf (talk) 06:52, May 19, 2013 (UTC) :::::You are correct, that is Although Rose was specifically referencing the meteor carrying the Frog Temple, which "... could have been propelled through a portal by any means, not just via the reckoning," and as we've seen on Jake's island, did arrive. But a number of other meteors, such as the SkaiaNet lab near Roxy's home, were also directed towards Earth through the portals, as Rose implies - so we know the portals (and thus the meteors as well) served some purpose in the post-scratch session beyond delivering the pre-scratch paradox clones to it. :::::Thus it's entirely possible another ectobiology session could ''occur, in which more paradox clones are created, put on meteors, and propelled through the defense portals in the ''post-scratch session, which creates at least half ''of the necessary conditions for a Scratch to occur (in a way that we have already ''seen, mind you). :::::And though it is important to note we have seen no evidence of more paradox clones being created, we cannot rule it out (lack of an ectobiology lab on the meteors would be the minimum evidence we'd need in order to do so, and I doubt we are going to get any exposition detailing such an absence), so we don't have conclusive evidence that a second Scratch is impossible per se. :::::Additionally, though the fact of there being no known Scratch Construct would ''seem to preclude it, we have seen other planet-manufactured "request" objects being sent floating Skaia-wards - from Jane's planet - and we all know how much players of this game like to try to abuse its mechanics. The absence of sufficient temporal energy being known to be stored in those objects, however, means there would need to be some further introduction of facts to support the possibility of such an exploit. :::::More and more, this is sounding like the kind of theory that Hussie would need to personally confirm/deny outside of the comic, or outright in canon. A post-scratch session being the one in which the ectobiology is performed doesn't confirm anything regarding the Kids' sessions, since we already know that the post-scratch paradox clones came from the session that ''caused ''the Scratch, and also that the ''post-scratch trolls never caused a second scratch; the Kid and troll sessions therefore are two completely separate scenarios, which just happen to be connected by the Tumor's explosion and probably Lord English himself. :::::This line of thinking led me to some interesting off-topic speculation, however. If you'll indulge me for a moment - we know that Caliborn wasn't delivered to his planet on a meteor, but rather was delivered by some means to ''a meteor that was ''already ''on his planet, as he is the direct result of messy apocalypse-snake baby-making combat. So (barring the explanation that the ''original Cherubs are the product of an ectobiology experiment) Caliborn presumably exists due to the creation and natural evolution of a Universe which has trolls in it (and we saw them getting slaughtered by his father in Aranea's exposition, as you may recall -so we might assume this Universe is the one in which Alternia or Beforus existed... and somehow winds up getting Earth delivered to it before Caliborn existed). :::::Also, since Caliborn wasn't a paradox clone, that means the initiation of his session was from within a Universe that had already launched another ''session of the game. If we think back, we can infer that SBURB (in the Kids' pre-scratch Universe, anyway) was being played by thousands or millions of ''non-paradox clones. Taken together, this is a ton of evidence implying that being a paradox clone isn't a prerequisite for playing the game. Which is an interesting fact to consider. tachyonTrajectory (talk) 17:25, May 19, 2013 (UTC) :I think we're failing to consider the logic of Skaia/Sburb in this discussion - specifically, why it switches the heroes and their ancestors around. If it was a matter of a simple "second chance," just reshuffling both ancestors and heroes a little in time and space should produce different circumstances to their lives that might be sufficient to force a change in outcome. However, instead Skaia specifically demotes the previous heroes to ancestor roles, and puts the ancestors forward as the new heroes. The message is, to my mind, clear: Failed heroes don't get a second chance. Skaia supplants them with the only other available hero candidates rather than giving the original heroes another go. If the second set of hero candidates fail, however, there are no other candidates; the whole genetic line has failed and logically should be scrapped altogether. As such, it seems unlikely that a post-Scratch session would be given the chance to Scratch again. 10:49, January 12, 2015 (UTC) ::That's a very compelling take on it, I like that. Well thought out and very convincing. 22:02, January 12, 2015 (UTC)